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Podcast: Leadership Through Crisis with Betsy Hodges, Kauffman Mayors Council

Posted on July 14, 2020


Betsy Hodges GovLove

Betsy Hodges

Betsy Hodges
Advisor, Writer, Speaker
Former Mayor of Minneapolis, Minnesota
Bio | Twitter | LinkedIn


Managing ongoing uncertainty. Betsy Hodges, former Mayor of Minneapolis, Minnesota, jointed the podcast to talk about the work of the Kauffman Mayors’ Council and leading during a time of crisis. She discussed the importance of communication, understanding what’s right, and self care. She also shared why she ran for Mayor and what it was like dealing with the aftermath of an officer-involved shooting.

This interview is part of a four part series with the Kauffman Mayors’ Council. The Mayors’ Council harnesses the knowledge and experience of former mayors to support cities across the county in efforts to build equitable community wealth.

Host: Alyssa Dinberg

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Episode Transcript

Alyssa Dinberg

Coming to you from Denver, Colorado, this is GovLove, a podcast about local government. GovLove is produced by ELGL, the Engaging Local Government Leaders network. We engage the brightest minds in local government. I’m Alyssa Dinberg, and today I’m joined by our guest from the Kauffman Mayor’s Council, the former Mayor of Minneapolis, Minnesota, Betsy Hodges. Former Mayor Betsy Hodges was the 47th, Mayor of Minneapolis. As mayor she worked hard to support entrepreneurs and small business owners in Minneapolis, including a complete assessment of where city policies were creating barriers for investment and growth. Hodges currently serves as an advisor to cities and mayor’s to improve equitable outcomes for people of color. She is a fellow at the Atlantic Fellowship for Racial Equity, and recently served as a residential fellow at the Harvard Kennedy School Institute of Politics. Welcome to GovLove Betsy. I’m super excited to have you on.

Betsy Hodges

Thanks so much. I’m really excited to be here.

Alyssa Dinberg

So this episode is one in a four part series with the Kauffman Mayor’s Council. We’ll be talking to all four members in the coming weeks about a number of topics and their reflections on the current public health crisis and efforts on the economic recovery. The Kauffman Mayor’s Council is comprised of former mayors representing geographically diverse cities who assist in initiatives throughout the foundation, using their knowledge and experience as former mayors to support the foundation’s work and entrepreneurship, education and innovation. So as we do with every episode, we’re going to start off with one of GovLove’s signature lightning rounds. And these are just fun questions so that our listeners can get to know you a little bit better. Are you ready to get started?

Betsy Hodges

I am so ready.

Alyssa Dinberg

Okay, so what, number one, what is the best gift you have ever received?

Betsy Hodges

A taxidermied stoat.

Alyssa Dinberg

Wait, say that one more time. A what?

Betsy Hodges

Taxidermied stoat, basically a weasel.

Alyssa Dinberg

Ah, okay.

Betsy Hodges

From the Minnesota State Fair.

Alyssa Dinberg

That is so funny. Okay. And you still have it?

Betsy Hodges

Yeah, it’s right behind me right now. Yep.

Alyssa Dinberg

That’s amazing. Okay.

Betsy Hodges

A little over 10 years ago I was at the State Fair, the Minnesota State Fair with my now husband. We hadn’t been dating all that long and the fair is always near my birthday and the taxidermy stand at the Minnesota State Fair has to be seen and experienced to really be believed and understood. And we were walking up and there was this stoat. It had been taxidermied to be coming out of a hollowed out log. And I my eyes just popped out of my head. I was like, that is amazing. And my now husband without a word picked it up and bought it for me for my birthday, just knowing that I would want that because it was just so fantastic. I mean, what’s not fantastic about it and you marry that guy, which I did.

Alyssa Dinberg

That’s an amazing story. I love that. That’s probably the best answer that I’ve heard to this question. Yeah.

Betsy Hodges

Great.

Alyssa Dinberg

So my next question I’ve been asking everyone during, on all the interviews that I’ve been doing during this time, what is your best self-care tip in the time of quarantine?

Betsy Hodges

My best self-care tip – and I have many things, but the top one would be to encourage folks to remember that whatever self-judgment they were doing, whatever standards they were using to judge themselves before the quarantine are just that. First of all, the self-judgment isn’t useful. But yeesh, if you are using the same standard to beat yourself over the head with during quarantine that you were using before, you might want to adjust your expectation because this is a really difficult and unprecedented time. It’s difficult for everybody. If you’re the shorter person listening to this podcast, you have a lot more on your plate than usual. And it all boils down to be as kind to yourself as you can figure out and adjust your expectations of what you’re capable of, and organize your resource and your time around that.

Alyssa Dinberg

I think that’s really beautiful advice. And I probably should just take that little segment and replay it for myself every morning. Because the standard that I typically hold myself to, I can’t hold myself to right now and, and I have to give myself a little bit of grace with that and be accepting of the fact that this is all really hard and yeah.

Betsy Hodges

Or as Patton Oswalt’s, late wife would say, he’s a fantastic comedian, and his late wife would always say – It’s chaos. Be kind.

Alyssa Dinberg

Yeah, that’s really good advice. I hope all of our listeners take that to heart and, and give themselves a little bit of kindness. I love that. All right, so my next question, I got some insider scoop that you are a huge Star Wars fan. And I want to know, if you were a character in Star Wars, any of the movies doesn’t matter which one, who would you be and why?

Betsy Hodges

I aspire to be Luke Skywalker, who’s spent his life or at least the first part of his life, figuring out how to understand that the human remains in all have us and to act as though that were true.

Alyssa Dinberg

That’s a really good answer. I love that. So my last question of the lightning round, this is something that I asked to every single listener that I have or to every single person that I interview and the listeners have come to expect this question from me. If you were a vegetable, what would you be and why?

Betsy Hodges

Arugula.

Alyssa Dinberg

Hmm? Okay.

Betsy Hodges

It’s not so strange that people don’t, aren’t familiar with it. But it isn’t so common that people take it for granted. It is delicious. It complements many dishes very well. And it has a little bit of a kick to it.

Alyssa Dinberg

I love arugula. I was actually in the grocery store yesterday trying to find it and they didn’t have it and I was really disappointed.

Betsy Hodges

Yes, it is delicious. It’s one of my favorite foods. It’s very good.

Alyssa Dinberg

All right, so let’s shift our attention a little bit to the Kauffman Mayor’s Council. So before you were, before serving as mayor, you served on the Minneapolis City Council for two years. Can you set the stage for where the city was when you ran for mayor and what motivated you to run?

Betsy Hodges

Oh, let’s see. I ran for Mayor in 2013. I had been on the city council for two terms and eight years. And I was representing the southwest corner of Minneapolis for those who are familiar with it. It is this, it is the where the chain of lakes is. So I represented two of the big lakes in Minneapolis. It’s very white. It’s very wealthy, very, you know, liberal progressive area in many ways but also had been represented by either republican or independent for, the last ward in Minneapolis that had been represented by republican and in for election cycles prior to my run for council had been represented by independents. So as you know, it has a conservative streak to it. And I had, I had been living there I had run for mayor from there with, run for city council from there and had a racial equity agenda. And I knew in 2013, Minneapolis was emerging from the recession of 2008. We had set things up well, focusing on the public good to emerge from that crisis sooner than many cities did, and stronger than many cities did. And I was proud of that work. I had been a steward of the budget, always with an eye toward serving everybody in the city well and changing systems so that they worked better for everyone. And I had come to a point where if I was really going to enact a racial equity agenda, I would need to do it with a city wide platform and not just from one of 13 City wards. And so I ran for mayor explicitly on that agenda and platform that racial inequities hold everyone back in the city, that we were leaving genius and dollars on the table by allowing some of the biggest inequities in the country to persist. It shocks people to hear that a progressive city like Minneapolis has some of the biggest gaps between white people and people of color in the country. But Minneapolis does. And I was explicit about that. And not just talking about it in a racial terms or people of color terms. I talked explicitly to white people about our whiteness, how it gets in the way and what’s in it for us to make sure that we have equitable systems that serve people equitably and get good outcomes for everybody. And that’s what motivated my run. That’s what set the stage for my time as mayor. And because I had run on that platform, I was, I won’t say I was ready for some of the tumult that attended my term, but I was practiced in talking about some of the issues that were at stake when that came up while I was there.

Alyssa Dinberg

Interesting. Okay, so my next question, um, you have described your time as mayor as tumultuous. During your tenure, there was an officer involved shooting of an African American. You were criticized by both, both by the Black Lives Matter activists in your city and the police union on the other side for your handling of it. It sounds like a really challenging situation and what was, what was that like and what did you learn from that time about how to lead through a crisis?

Betsy Hodges

Well, it was tragic and awful. The situation, the shooting, Jamar Clark was shot by two Minneapolis police officers on November 15, 2015. And it was a terrible tragic time for everybody and then there was an 18 day occupation of the grounds of our whole police precinct in North Minneapolis. After the shooting, that was my job to govern through on lots of people were trying to figure out how to have that end well, it as well as it could. It ended peacefully. It was a difficult difficult 18 days. And I had to lead to that time. And what I learned from doing that was yes, indeed, I was attacked from all sides, I was being flanked by all sides, which is personally a terrible experience. But as someone leading it’s a little bit freeing, because there’s nothing you’re going to do that makes people happy. It’s impossible to satisfy people. And I wasn’t trying to do that. What I was trying to do was keep as many people as safe as possible all day every day. And what I learned from that was, first of all, to communicate, the biggest mistake I made through all of that is I didn’t tell my constituents enough about what I was doing about the situation. I had gotten some advice from people who came in to help, that it was more important to focus on the behind the scenes efforts to end the occupation than it was to communicate about it. And I think that that was a fundamental mistake because people didn’t know what I was doing every day. And that was on me. What I did do, and what I recommend people do, is I woke up every morning and I looked in the mirror, literally, not figuratively, I looked myself in the mirror and I asked myself are you willing to do what it takes today to keep people safe, regardless of the impact on you, looking at myself professionally or personally, and to the best of my ability, the answer was always yes. And I recommend that, that at any time but particularly in a crisis be guided by the right thing and not the political thing or the personal thing. In 20 years looking back, who do you want to have been in and what do you want to say you did during this time, and create as few places as possible that you are tempted to hide from yourself the truth about how you handle the difficult period? It’s an invitation to be bigger and to be selfless. I knew what the politics thing was to do. I knew what I needed to do to potentially save my job. I also knew that that wasn’t the same thing as the right thing to do. And so I did what I thought was right. You know, for good or for ill, I did what I thought was right and what I thought was best, and I got advice and I talked to people and I was communicating with people all day every day. It wasn’t just me sitting alone in a room doing that. And I communicated with members of the most affected communities, including the people who were protesting every day to do my best to figure out a way forward. And I recommend that. I learned how important it was to keep as many lines of communication open as long as possible with the people who are most affected by what was happening. The thing is in a situation like that the people most affected yes, were the protesters yes were the African American community who had faced situations like this since the beginning of what is called the United States of America. And other affected parties were the neighbors, were the police officers who were on the line every day at that police precinct. It was people who were trying you know, the ambulance drivers trying to get through one of the main thoroughfares in North Minneapolis that was blocked, and having to balance all of those interests all at the same time, in a cauldron of potential harm to people every day. And indeed, one evening, five people were shot at the, at the protest. Yes. Having to balance all of that, yeah, that is hard. And that’s exactly what people elect you to do. And it is important to balance all of that and to how is your North Star? What do I think is right and to have that North Star shine brighter than what’s going to save my political hide?

Alyssa Dinberg

Right. So choosing the right thing to do is obviously not always the easy route to take. What do you think the long term impacts to not only the city like the residents, but the organization have been from the choices that you made during that incident?

Betsy Hodges

A lot of the impact came from choices I made subsequent to that incident. Disruption and protest like that is often a blunt instrument, but it is a powerful one. And it creates an opening and it creates focus. And I already had an agenda for transformation of policing in Minneapolis. I was pursuing it before that shooting happened. And what I saw was the opportunity to use that moment to accelerate the pace of that change. We implemented a year early, crisis intervention training, procedural justice, training, implicit bias training for all police officers. We put many changes in claims in the wake of that in part because there was so much focus and agitation about policing that people who usually would have resisted those changes, were not in a position to or were moved and not to resist the changes that I was proposing, including the city council who would have objected to some of the changes that I was proposing before that, and I used that moment to make some changes. And eventually there was a, in July of 2017, there was another awful tragic officer involved shooting of an officer who shot a woman in southwest Minneapolis, the place I had been the city council member, and I used that moment to change the leadership in the police department in a way that had not been possible before that.

Alyssa Dinberg

Hmm, interesting. So what is your advice for leaders, when, at least at the moment, based on the latest from public health officials and scientists, we can’t answer questions like what’s going to happen? And what does the future look like? How do you manage that ongoing uncertainty from a leadership perspective and make the right decision to protect your residents and not your political career?

Betsy Hodges

The first thing I would recommend to leaders leading right now, and first of all, they have my thanks and my, my sympathy, my commiseration, but my deep appreciation. This is a very difficult time to lead when things are so uncertain. So that first thing I would say is manage your own uncertainty and your own response to the uncertainty. Make sure you have resources in place to support you. Because you are a human being in a time that is so difficult for so many people and you are people. You know, we are not, leaders aren’t suddenly immune from the soft parts of our humanity that are distressed by this difficulty. And so call on what resources you have your friends, your spiritual advisors, your internal reserves, make sure to take time for yourself at a time when that’s impossible, even if that means getting up 15 minutes earlier just to breathe some fresh air on your back porch, or whatever you can manage for yourself first. That’s how you manage the ongoing uncertainty. Because it also gives you compassion for your constituents in a way that is harder to access if you’re not having compassion for yourself. And that would be the second thing I would recommend, that uncertainty. They’re all experiencing. They don’t need you to have every answer, but they do want to know that you’re doing something and not as I mentioned, is what I learned from that, that time in 2015, that was so difficult after police officers killed Jamar Clark, is people need to know what you’re doing. You don’t have to have all the answers. They may, they’re more likely to forgive you for not having all the answers in this time, but they won’t forgive you for not telling them what you do know and for what you can understand. So communicate as often as you can figure out with all the channels at your disposal. What it is you do know what it is you are doing. It may be repetitive, people have to hear things seven times before they fully understand it. The neuroscience tells us, tell people what you’re doing. Let them know that you care about them, let them know that you understand that they are going through a painful time and that you share that. Let them know that there may be leadership they don’t have faith in but they can have faith in you to at least tell them what you do know and that you are on the case to the best of your ability.

Alyssa Dinberg

I think that’s a really important point to make on communicating to residents and to your staff. Especially in times like right now because there is so much uncertainty. Just being there to say, you know, I know you’re going through a lot, and I don’t have the answers, and I can’t fix it, but I’m here for you.

Betsy Hodges

And to that point of doing the right thing, you will be delivering news that someone doesn’t want to hear whatever your desires are, in this time. There will be people who do not like it and do not agree with it, acknowledging, saying, I’m choosing the best among the bad options. And here’s what that is. And I know it’s creating difficulties for this set of people. Here’s what we’re doing, to attend to those difficulties that you’re facing. Here’s what I’ve put together to help manage through this as a leader. Here’s what here’s what’s on the ground for you as a resident and long term, here’s what we’re starting to put in place now so we’re ready to come out of this terrible situation as strong as we know we are as a people that we can move forward together. That sort of messaging people will want to hear even though it doesn’t give them the answer they that they’re craving.

Alyssa Dinberg

Right. Yeah, that’s great advice for any crisis. But I think a lot of our listeners will be able to, will be able to apply that to what they’re dealing with right now. Because cities are about to be making some really, really, really tough decisions that they do not want to be making. They’re gonna have to. Yeah. So now that we have past two initial stimulus phases for the SBA disaster recovery, and the SBA paycheck protection loans, how do you continue to support and communicate with your small business and entrepreneurship communities that are honestly trying to keep Main Street alive in their communities?

Betsy Hodges

Well, I think what we just talked about is part of that answer. There isn’t a good answer right now. There’s some good news coming for disaster recovery that people are starting to pay more attention to, even more attention to small business and entrepreneurs that really are fighting to keep not just Mainstreet but all small businesses alive in their communities. And that first piece of advice still stands, make sure you’re taking care of yourself, you are having to govern through difficult time. The second piece still stands. Tell people what you do know and what you can do. Communicate to the point of potentially over communicating what you know about the situation they’re facing and what you’re doing as a city and what resources are available to people. That includes telling people I’m part of this group that works with city government and we are advocating at the federal level for you at the federal level. We are fighting to make sure that your concerns are heard and heeded in whatever national and federal policy comes out of this crisis, and to think about not just where the puck is right now, which you have to do, but also about where the puck is going to be in two months, in six months, in a year What are, and the best way to know that is to listen to your small business owners and entrepreneurs, not just talk to not just tell them things, but listen to them. What do they see coming down the pipe for them? What do they need to support them in that time? They may ask you for things you cannot now provide, but you can work with partners to provide or you can say, let’s hold hands and figure out how to put this together as a unit. Let’s work together, let’s come together. Now is the time to be listening to your entrepreneurs and small business owners more than ever, about what they’re facing and what they need. It’s also the time to tell them, the tough choices that you’re facing and be honest about the decisions you’re making about that. And as much as you know about time frames, let them know that as well.

Alyssa Dinberg

I’m seeing Oh, sorry, go on.

Betsy Hodges

But it is. I mean, this is a dire time for people and so that understanding what they’re facing is important. But they don’t want you to just understand they want you to let them know what you’re doing about it. And you, and some days you have answers they won’t like, but maintaining that communication now is crucial.

Alyssa Dinberg

Absolutely. I’m seeing a theme, or I’m hearing a theme in this episode so far. And it’s communication and listening in times of crisis and in times of trouble. That seems to be the recipe for successful leadership, at least in your experience.

Betsy Hodges

It’s a piece, certainly a piece of the recipe. It’s not the whole thing. But it’s that communication plus relationship, even if you don’t have the relationships now, you can build them now. And people will know and build trust over the course of you doing what you said you would do and not doing what you said you wouldn’t do. Now is the time and the communication lands better with people with whom you’re in a relationship.

Alyssa Dinberg

Yeah. So right now doctors and health officials and scientists have warned that we’re not past the threat of Coronavirus. What is your advice about communicating the processes you’ve been going through to plan for future outbreaks? And what plans should cities be thinking about this summer? And how should they be thinking about codifying their processes and who are the groups that are important to reach out to?

Betsy Hodges

Well, I …..

Alyssa Dinberg

That’s a big question. I know.

Betsy Hodges

It’s a big question. I’m not telling city leaders how to govern, or what decisions they have to make. They have to make decisions for their own communities. But I would be, first of all, we’ve already talked about communicating what you have been doing, who have you been talking to? That’s part of it. Even if you don’t have an answer yet, who have you been consulting with? And how often and with what questions are, what questions are you bringing to the table? And what questions are they bringing to the table that you’re trying to answer? Let people know all of that. For this summer, be very clear about what the guidelines are, what the consequences are for violating those guidelines and what resources you’re putting into those, whatever guidelines you come up with for the summer. But also have a plan for okay, I don’t know if I agree that we’re coming out of the crisis. I do agree that people are tired enough of it, that they’re making a different set of decisions than they’ve been making for the last 10 or 12 weeks. And that’s, I understand that impulse. But we’re not out of the crisis yet. People are going to get sick and as people as cities and states open up, there will be resurgences of clusters of sickness of Coronavirus. They’re seeing that in other countries as they’re opening up and be clear about what you’re going to do if and when that happens as well. Look, we’re going to do the slow reopening of the city we’re going to do a slow reopening of the state if people are state leaders, but you know, for cities, we’re going to do a slow reopening of the city. We are likely to see a spike. When we see increases at this level sustained for this amount of time, that’s when we’re going to reissue stay at home orders or whatever it is. Let people know now so that they’re not surprised. That would be, that would be my suggestion. As few surprises as you can give people the better. This world is surprising enough right now as it is.

Alyssa Dinberg

Yeah, absolutely.

Betsy Hodges

And as for the groups that it’s important to reach out to, there are groups in your city who have been historically left behind. There are groups in your city who don’t, aren’t loud about the fact that they’ve been left behind because they may be scared to make waves. You know, immigrant communities, for example, right now are more nervous, according to data, are more nervous to approach government about anything, given the state of the immigration conversation at the national level. So extra effort to talk to communities of color, low income communities, immigrant communities, the disability community in particular, given that certain disabilities may be more susceptible to Coronavirus and its complications are really really important groups to talk to in your community and there are immigrant communities, communities of color.  Each of them need different partnerships with their leadership. They may need different languages, they may need different approaches, and to be thoughtful about that and thorough about that will help keep your residents and your constituents even safer.

Alyssa Dinberg

So you talked a little bit about building relationships and not during a crisis as well as during a crisis. How do you assess the important stakeholders and build those relationships during a crisis that may have not been strong or even existed previously?

Betsy Hodges

You may be finding there are groups, parts of the community, pockets of neighborhoods that you have not reached fully in your governing time. And you know, the best time to plant a tree is 20 years ago, the second best time to plant tree is today. Start building those relationships today, identify who in your circle does have relationships in those communities and start asking for introductions. Put together zoom meetings, or town hall phone calls, or one on one calls to talk to folks. And it’s a time to listen to their concerns as well as express what it is you’re doing. This isn’t necessarily a campaign call where you’re saying, this is what I’ve been doing for you, and here’s what I’ll do for you in the future. There may be some of that, but it’s also a time to listen, to find out what people are going through, what they’re experiencing, what is the best way to communicate with them, what is the best way to communicate with their neighbors and get their best thinking and advice about how to proceed. That does two things. You get the information you need to get crucial information to your constituents and you start building relationships with leaders in parts of the community you may not have had much of a relationship with before.

Alyssa Dinberg

That’s fantastic information. Yeah. All right. Fantastic advice.

Betsy Hodges

One more, one more piece of that is acknowledge the oversight. Acknowledge that you didn’t have the relationship before that it would have been useful to have. You’re looking to build it now. And here’s how you would like the relationship to look moving forward. Whether that’s a Council of members of such and such a community, whether that’s I’d like to have a monthly call with you, whether that’s, I’m going to call you when I’m putting the budget together where we’re thinking about expenditures to get your thinking about it, or to at least update you. Acknowledge the oversight and then correct it moving forward, not just for an emergency and then do what you say you will do. That’s the best way to build a good relationship. Do what you say you will do. Do not do what you said you would not do.

Alyssa Dinberg

I definitely think a lot of cities right now are trying to figure out how to reach all of those communities that they may not have had relationships with prior. And these are all really great suggestions on ways to do that.

Betsy Hodges

The crisis is revealing. It doesn’t really create a lot of new dynamics, but it does reveal the dynamics that exist. And it’s an opportunity to make change moving forward.

Alyssa Dinberg

Yeah, absolutely. I hope a lot of, I personally am approaching my work this way. And I think everyone in my circle is and I hope everyone is but I think a lot of people are approaching the crisis as this is providing a huge opportunity for us to improve the future. I mean, we’ll never have this opportunity again, hopefully.

Betsy Hodges

Agreed. And this is a time and an opportunity to not just provide services for people but to change how your systems operate to reduce inequalities that have existed since those systems began.

Alyssa Dinberg

Yeah. So I have one more question for you. How do you think managing through this time in history is like being a part of the Republic before the emperor took over the Galactic Senate?

Betsy Hodges

That’s a great question. There’s a lot going on right now that’s very similar. For folks who aren’t familiar, the Star Wars prequels are set in this time, and there’s a crisis at hand. Both sides have a lot of power. Both sides have the ability to make some changes, but only one of those sides is completely ruthless. And based in the dark side and not the forest, there are perfidious actors behind the scenes taking advantage of taxation difficulties and supply chain difficulties that happen when you have a large empire that’s spread out over a lot of space. You know, I watch these prequels and I think, my god! How did you even do the taxation collection? There are so many planets ….. over so many places and the infrastructure needs on each planet are so distinct because they have such different environments and such different beings who live there with different physical needs. So there’s a lot to take advantage of when the Empire is that big and that secretive. And if you have perfidious actors playing both sides behind the scenes, you have a difficult time of it. And we’re seeing a lot of that as well. The good news is that it spurs people to action, the rebels you know, came out of the Rebel Alliance came out of the takeover of the Galactic Senate and then in the end ended well, at least for a chunk of time, and without building Yoda out of that, for example. And there’s a lot of hope and a lot of good that can come out of it as long as you stay with the force and don’t go to the dark.

Alyssa Dinberg

I have to say that I love being able to weave in questions like this. I love it. I love having guests on the podcast that are willing to play along.

Betsy Hodges

And I should be clear. I just want to be clear, to me the force and the dark side are not about political parties or agents. It’s about how you approach your work and who’s at the center of it.

Alyssa Dinberg

Alright, so I have one more question for you. And this is how we end every episode. If you could be the GovLove DJ for the day, what song would you pick as your exit music for this episode?

Betsy Hodges

Land of Hope and Dreams by Bruce Springsteen.

Alyssa Dinberg

Good choice. I think it reminds me of my childhood. My mom loves Bruce Springsteen.

Betsy Hodges

Yes, as do I. And that song on his 2012 album Wrecking Ball, which I highly recommend for this time, the entire thing, that song is about we’re all imperfect, and we’re all in this together and let’s figure it out.

Alyssa Dinberg

Good answer. Thank you so much for coming on the episode today, but I really, really appreciate it. This was a fantastic episode.

Betsy Hodges

You’re very welcome. I appreciate your time.

Alyssa Dinberg

So as we mentioned in our previous episodes, one of the big focus areas for the Mayor’s Council is helping with the Kauffman Foundation’s Mayor’s Conference on entrepreneurship. The conference is going to be virtually held this year from September 17 to 18. For our listeners interested in learning more about the conference or registering you can visit @mayorsconference.kauffman.org. You can reach out to Kauffman Mayor’s Council by emailing them at [email protected] This ends our episode for today. It was really really great to talk to Betsy and I look forward to the rest of our guests as part of this series. For our listeners, you can reach us at elgl.org/GovLove or on Twitter @Govlovepodcast. GovLove is hosted by ELGL. ELGL is the Engaging Local Government Leaders network for the social startup with the mission of engaging the brightest minds and local government. Please subscribe to GovLove through your favorite podcast service and leave us a review so more people know that GovLove is the podcast for local government topics. And if you have a story for GovLove, we absolutely want to hear it. Please send us a message on Twitter or email [email protected] Thanks for listening. This has been GovLove, a podcast about local government.


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